Mormons, with John and 3 Nephite Apostles never tasting death, why did the priesthood need to be restored?
If the below texts are true, then how did the priesthood leave the earth?
THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 7
Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Oliver Cowdery, at Harmony, Pennsylvania, April 1829, when they inquired through the Urim and Thummim as to whether John, the beloved disciple, tarried in the flesh or had died. The revelation is a translated version of the record made on parchment by John and hidden up by himself. HC 1: 35–36.
1–3, John the Beloved shall live until the Lord comes; 4–8, Peter, James, and John hold gospel keys.
1 And the Lord said unto me: John, my beloved, what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.
2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.
3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.
4 And for this cause the Lord said unto Peter: If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? For he desired of me that he might bring souls unto me, but thou desiredst that thou mightest speedily come unto me in my kingdom. (D&C 7:1-4)
THIRD NEPHI
THE BOOK OF NEPHI
THE SON OF NEPHI, WHO WAS THE SON OF HELAMAN
CHAPTER 28
Nine of the Twelve desire and are promised an inheritance in Christ’s kingdom when they die—The Three Nephites desire and are given power over death so as to remain on the earth until Jesus comes again—They are translated and see things not lawful to utter, and they are now ministering among men. Between A.D. 34 and 35
1 And it came to pass when Jesus had said these words, he spake unto his disciples, one by one, saying unto them: What is it that ye desire of me, after that I am gone to the Father?
2 And they all spake, save it were three, saying: We desire that after we have lived unto the age of man, that our ministry, wherein thou hast called us, may have an end, that we may speedily come unto thee in thy kingdom.
3 And he said unto them: Blessed are ye because ye desired this thing of me; therefore, after that ye are seventy and two years old ye shall come unto me in my kingdom; and with me ye shall find crest.
4 And when he had spoken unto them, he turned himself unto the three, and said unto them: What will ye that I should do unto you, when I am gone unto the Father?
5 And they sorrowed in their hearts, for they durst not speak unto him the thing which they desired.
6 And he said unto them: Behold, I aknow your thoughts, and ye have desired the thing which John, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me.
7 Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven.
8 And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father. (3 Nephi 28:1-8)
Also, I am wondering why there are no reports of these 4 still being alive, but thats another question.
It didn’t need to be, but as Josephs story grew, something had to be done, thus his convenient "revelations".
It didn’t need to be, but as Josephs story grew, something had to be done, thus his convenient "revelations".
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While being raised in Utah, I was always told by my classmates that the "Three Nephites" spent their time preaching the gospel and converting people.
Presumably they were "administering the ordinances of the gospel" such as baptism.
Doesn’t this beg the question: Was there even an apostasy then?
If these three were going around baptizing people into a proto-LDS church, wouldn’t there then indeed be "true believers" on the planet?
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Atheist who grew up in Utah.
They didn’t have the keys of authority to pass it on.
I hold the priesthood, but if the church leadership were destroyed and nobody was left with the priesthood except me I couldn’t just ordain others because I would lack the presidency or keys of administration of the priesthood.
Similarly one can have the priesthood required to baptize at 16; but they can’t preform a baptism without express permission of either a bishop or mission president, both of whom hold keys of administration of ordinances.
EDIT – you posted half of D&C 7, your answer in in the latter half of that section.
6 Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.
7 And I will make thee to minister for him and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come.
So if the 3 Nephites had been Peter James and John then a restoration of keys and priesthood wouldn’t have been needed. In those times as today when a prophet dies his keys fall collectively on the quorum of the 12 until there is a new prophet – there isn’t one individual who can call himself prophet and redirect the affairs of the church without common consent from the remainder of the group and a sustaining vote as inspired by revelation.
So John on his own had no keys or authority and for the 12 apostles in the Americas they had authority in their area but not general authority like Peter James and John.
A modern-day LDS analogy would be an area authority who presides in an area but once outside has not authority (same for bishops and stake presidents, outside of their wards or stakes they are just normal members) whereas a general authority is in charge and has authority wherever he goes.
People in and out of the church often don’t understand what "keys of the priesthood" really means.
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The three Nephites and John do not hold all the keys of the priesthood thus the need for a restoration.
There are plenty of stories of those 4 being alive. Most of them are considered Mormon folklore.
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John was involved in the restoration of the priesthood–he was one of the ones that gave Joseph Smith the priesthood.
Also, if you read what happened to these individuals–they were all exiled. The 3 Nephites were "removed from the earth". The church established in their times collapsed into apostasy.
Sure the 3 Nephites and John continued alive–but it still had to be restored to other people so that the work of the gospel could continue.
So I guess I don’t see what’s the big deal with the issue that you bring up. The priesthood was lost to mankind–and through the grace of God, it was restored.
It would certainly stink if somebody wanted to get baptized by an authorized servant of Christ–only to discover that there are only 4 of them on the planet. Talk about a long line.
Also–if the priesthood wasn’t lost, then why the apostasy? Obviously there was a lot of junk going on after the original church collapsed.
If there were reports of these people still being alive, then it would be really easy to believe–wouldn’t it. Everybody and their uncle would be Mormon.
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I have personally read a family journal account of one of the three ministering in the 1820’s in New England (first hand) in the journal of a family who has been in the LDS church since its inception. He taught many things that were not taught by the protestants of the time and prophesied that while the true church of God was not on the earth at that time, that my friends’ family would join it when it was come and would come to be known by it. He had called a religious gathering and asked who would like to come to another one the next night, and nobody but the one family returned, at which time he gave the prophecy. There is more to the account but that will suffice for here.
I personally believe that were there no priesthood holders on the earth in between dispensations that would be tantamount to surrendering the earth completely to Satan. So, the keeping of John alive on the earth holding the priesthood fulfills the prophesy of Christ that of the church, the Gates of Hell would not prevail against it.
But that is my own interpretation.
Good question though.
*Edit*
Interestingly, as I think of this, we read in the Book of Mormon of the prophet Ether having to hide from being killed for his religion. I think when things got to this point where there was only three or one, the "Church" couldn’t survive. Even in Revelations the Lord says to John "strengthen those things which remain that are ready to die" Revelations 3:2. I think the whole point was, the organization its self could not survive due to the wickedness of the world…..I mean…..even Noah had to flee in an ark……just some thoughts…..
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LDS convert